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Interview: Idris Jones former Primus, Scottish Episcopal Church

01 March 2013

'Retirement was much more unsettling than I had imagined'

"Presiding Bishop" or "Moderator Bishop" would have been a better title than "Primus". The Primus isn't Archbishop, but he's elected by the other six bishops to act as primus inter pares ["first among equals"] - convener at their meetings and as chief consecrator for Bishops.

I served as Primus for three years, which included the last Lambeth Conference.

The Scottish Episcopal Church has its own General Synod, liturgy, and code of canons, which tend to be less prescriptive than those in England.

I certainly hope the consecration of women as bishops will happen. The sooner the better. We passed enabling legislation many years ago, although no election has yet taken place. We have had women candidates in two recent elections, though.

I say this on the basis of coming into contact with lots of women bishops, all of them excellent. It would be a great addition to the skill pool of the Church.

When I was made Primus, the Bishops could not make up their minds. I was chosen "by lots" - no, I am not sure what that means, either. It was not a happy experience. The college was divided evenly between two candidates, and for two or three months we thrashed around waiting to see if there was any change of opinion. In the end, a mechanism had to be used to break the deadlock. Living with that uncertainty for a couple of months wasn't good for the individuals or their dioceses.

The Episcopal Church is in a unique position to speak as a minority body within the nation of Scotland, and to the UK. We are part of a Celtic grouping whose experience is that of being non-Established. The relationship with the Church of England should be cordial, and with the freedom to challenge each other when necessary.

I'm really Welsh during the rugby season. My grandparents were the Welsh connection. I was actually born in the Black Country of south Staffordshire.

It was never in my wildest dreams that I'd be part of the Lambeth Conference, with bishops from around the world. Archbishop Rowan did a most magnificent job in the way he led the conference and held people together. That's an achievement that hasn't been sufficiently acknowledged. And it was incredible to have experts from all areas of secular life bringing us up to speed on issues like climate change.

I have given up Glasgow & Galloway [his former diocese] in favour of golf and gardening. I offer priestly ministry when needed, and play the organ for my local church when there is no one else to do so. Just recently, I have been given the chance to become more closely involved in the life of the city of Glasgow, which is gearing up for the Commonwealth Games in 2014. And then there's the referendum on the future status of Scotland within the United Kingdom.

The experience of retirement in the early days was much more unsettling than I had imagined it would be. The paradoxical thing is that I was involved in counselling and personal growth for years, but "the physician" wasn't able to heal himself. In my head I was prepared for it, but in my gut I was not.

One day I was in the centre of absolutely everything, and then the following day found myself an outsider. I didn't know what was going on, and I felt out of it. You're invited to meetings - people are very hospitable - but you are no longer involved. You can make sure you have other things you find fulfilling, but it's a shock to the system to realise that you don't have a place in an institution to which you've dedicated everything for over 40 years.

In secular employment, when you've gone, you've gone. But, in the Christian ministry, you don't walk away from everything. You are still a member of the Church. The difficulty is knowing what you should be involved with.

The Trades House of Glasgow was established by James VI and I as one of the constituent elements of government, together with the Town Council and the Merchants House. Today, the Trades House comprises 14 incorporations, similar to, but different from, the London livery companies. It gives something like £800,000 a year to charities in the City of Glasgow. This year, I'm Collector of the Trades House; next year, I become "the Late Collector"; and then, all being well, should become the Deacon Convener for a year. The Deacon Convener has the honorific position of "Third Citizen", and is involved with the Lord Provost in ceremonial functions. There is a seat on the City Council, but without a vote.

There are still a lot of unknowns about the independence referendum. It will be interesting to see how the fine details will be worked out and presented to the public. There are powerful arguments for and against. Education is in a mess, and the gap between rich and poor continues to grow. I think, in general, it's in Scotland's interest to stay part of the Union, but I'm not sure it will make a difference either way.

I feel the Churches should be engaging more seriously with a striving for unity. As the Holy Spirit moves our society towards more compassionate regard for the marginalised, the Churches need to be at the forefront of that provision, and more innovative and outward-looking.

The developments in spiritual care as a dimension of health-care provision, and, in particular, some of the pilot projects linking that into general practice, are beginning to show very encouraging results. There's an improvement in well-being in those places where access to spiritual life is made available. This work is across boundaries of faith, and acknowledges the reality of faith.

Alison and I retired to live in Largs, a town on the Firth of Clyde, about 30 miles south-west of Glasgow. It's a thriving community with a lively retirement population. It's one of the main centres for sailing in the area, and the site of the battle which marked the end of the Viking occupation of Scotland; so there's a Viking festival each year. We have two adult sons, both married and living in Scotland, and one grandson, who arrived in October 2012; a second grandchild is due in May.

Childhood ambitions. . . Well, survival, since I did not enjoy school at all until I entered the sixth year at the local grammar school. I had, from the age of 12, a sense of wanting to serve as a priest - largely because of the example of the local vicar of the church where I had joined the choir.

My most important choice was to ask Alison to marry me. I could not and would not have been able to work in the various areas of ministry that I have without her support. My biggest regret was when some of the projects that I considered helpful in the life of the Church were not taken up, or considered with quite the same seriousness by colleagues.

I'd like to be remembered as someone who was fair, and who treated everyone in the same way. I hope that I have been able to foster the sense of church as community.

Besides the vicar with whom I came to a sense of vocation, I have been inspired by one or two teachers at secondary school, and two of my predecessors as Bishop and Primus: the late Alastair Haggart, and Ted Luscombe.

I don't consider myself widely read. I enjoy the novels of John Grisham, and have found Dan Brown to be hugely entertaining .

I can think of a number of memorable sermons - or sound-bites therefrom. One from Canon Roland Walls: "Our church is like a mini, not a juggernaut, and that means we can change direction with comparative ease"; and Bishop Ted Luscombe preaching on Genesis: "There is a snake in every garden."

I love the Friary at Alnmouth.

One has to avoid falling into the trap of being like Marcion and editing the Bible to leave only the nice bits; but I never fail to thrill at the reading of John's Prologue to the Gospel of his name; I tend to switch off when it comes to dietary and other regulations attached to sacrificial worship as it was once practised.

My favourite sound is our dog; but, musically, the organ works of J. S. Bach; and Dixieland Jazz, too.

I'm told I have a fearful temper. People behaving or speaking in a prejudiced way make me angry, and any kind of hypocrisy.

I'm happiest relaxing at home after any event at which I have being performing in any way.

I believe that prayer is an attitude of awareness of God. I pray most that I might have that awareness, and then for those who are sick, and those who care for them.

I might be in for a frosty reception, but I would choose to be locked in a church with the martyr-king Charles I, who has always fascinated me. Would the King be inclined to share any thoughts with the benefit of hindsight? What would he make of his beloved Anglican Church today?

The Rt Revd Idris Jones was talking to Terence Handley MacMath.

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